Pin Bridge Vs. Pinless

[MIKE 450]

I'm thinking of getting Avalon to convert my 201 silver series from Pin Bridge to Pinless. Some pinless guitars I play seem to have less string tension,can anyone confirm this or I'm I kidding myself.

I don't want to start a tonal debate, for I fear we would be entering into deep water on which sounds the best. However, changing strings would be more simple on Pinless, but my question is really about String Tension.

Would it be expensive to convert to Pinless, or pointless. Your views please!

[Rick Jones]

Hi Mike,

Are you trying the same strings on the pinned and pinless type bridges, and are the scale lengths the same?
The reason I ask, is because tension=pitch, given the same weight of string, the part of the string in between the nut (or your finger) and where it passes over the saddle has to be at the same tension or the pitch will be different.

Less tension equals lower pitch. A greater break angle may give more tension after the saddle, and thus down force, but this affects the energy transfer into the top, and thus tone. Not tension on the part of the string you play. I won't go into tone, as it's all subjective anyway.

Ways to get the same pitch with less tension are confined to lighter strings, or a shorter scale length.

I had this friendly argument with a semi famous guitarist I used to tech/roadie for. He played a Les Paul, and insisted I string the tuno matic bridge from the front, bringing the strings up and over the top of the tailpiece instead of through from the back. He swore it gave 'less tension'....I actually drove myself nuts with the physics of it all, but it actually made no difference to the tension once it was tuned to the same pitch.

If you prefer pinless bridges, go for it!
I worked in a Takamine dealership for a while (pre fender takeover), and I did like the way they felt under my right palm. As a caveat though, and again, it may just be coincidence, I had more guitars in for lifted bridges with the pinless design than I did pinned.

Hope that's a help, and didn't come across wrong!

[MIKE 450]

Thanks Rick, I know what you mean about driving yourself nuts with the physics, when I'm not playing or writing I'm THINKING guitar physics. I notice a lot of expensive guitars have pinless,and I wondered was I missing out on something there.

I don't own a pinless,I was just playing a friends and he swore there was less tension. Now I can't sleep thinking about the PHYSICS!

[MIKE 450]

Thanks John, yes I will be keeping my money for the AER

[Rick Jones]

I deliberately avoid the Lowden/Avalon thing on the other forum I go on, because it gets heated for reasons beyond me.

I can say, I have a good friend here, from N.I. but he lives in Jersey, and he's a big trad player. His main guitar is an O32 Lowden. Pinless bridge and slightly more 'shouldered' neck than my Avalon L32, and I guess they are probably braced differently. His Lowden is '98, so I'm guessing the same people made his guitar as made mine, and probably on the same bench.

We use the same 13-56 strings as he plays in DADGAD for the main part.
My L32 has more sustain. No question. This surprised me, as his is a 1998 guitar with tons of playing miles on it. It's 'played in' and very much open sound wise. My harmonics 'bloom' and swell up, his are very pronounced right from the attack. His is better suited to 'harping', where you pluck the harmonic 12 frets down from a fretted note in a passage, ala Tommy Emmanuel or Bensusan.

My L32 is a little more focused, his O32 a little more biased to the overtones. I'd call his 'airy' compared to mine.
His low strings have an almost classical guitar sound to them, mellow, very lovely sounding. Mine are a tad 'snappier' and have a more pronounced attack. I'd say mine was more versatile, honestly.

I don't know how much of this is to do with bridge design vs. age of the guitar/different bracing/more wood on the neck, but those are the differences I've found.

I hope it's ok to post this!

[MIKE 450]

Thanks Rick, I was flying over New Jersey a few weeks ago, our plane almost fell out of the sky during a bad storm "a small turboprop" everyone started to scream, and I joked " maybe if we land in Ricks back yard I'll get to play he's Avalon"

Every time I go to N,America I'm amazed at you guys using 13-56 strings. I was in a music store in Toronto and all the Martins had high action and big thick strings.While I was trying to play, the guys that work there told me everyone from the UK&IRE were pussy! because we all played light strings and low action.

Those guys were right, I use 11's and 10's on my twelve string. I was thinking about putting 13-56 on my twelve string "if the neck holds out"because I only strum it.

What do you think Rick,should I go for 13-56 on the twelve string. BIG SOUND MAN!

[Rick Jones]

Thanks Rick, I was flying over New Jersey a few weeks ago, our plane almost fell out of the sky during a bad storm "a small turboprop" everyone started to scream, and I joked " maybe if we land in Ricks back yard I'll get to play he's Avalon"

Ummmm.....I'm in Jersey matey, not New Jersey!!!
The original one, 14 miles off the coast of France!!!

I am actually Welsh, although my Dad was American from TN.....confused yet?

13-56...I can't get on with anything lighter nowadays, I could make a telephone wire fret buzz!

But if your plane ever comes over Jersey you're welcome here to try mine!

[MIKE 450]

Sorry Rick, I drink too much! Still I love your guitar playing and songs,cheers mate!

[riverdog]

Sorry Rick, I drink too much! Still I love your guitar playing and songs,cheers mate!

Hey Mike don't feel bad I made the same mistake! I replied to Rick once and I started babbling about New Jersey then come to find out it aint that Jersey. I felt stupid, but Rick was kind enough not to call me out on it. But hey a Welsh Tennesean, no wonder Rick's got the mojo from both sides!
Btw I'm not in the same league of knowledge as Rick and John, but what Rick says about the pinless vs pin makes sense. I have an Avalon Concert and a 98 Lowden LSEII and I do not notice any difference in tension and I use either Martin Marquis pb 12-54 or ghs LJ pb 12-54. They both have exceptional sustain too. Both built solid, I don't know if Lowden has ever had any bridge lifting issues. I hope not cuz mine has been thru alot, outside in this Florida weather and all. I play the Avalon outside on the back porch and I'm not the least bit worried cuz it feels solid.
Well cheers to ya friend,
riverdog

[MIKE 450]

Hi y'all, I've just replaced the bridge pins on my guitar with TUSQ pins and I can't believe the difference in tone-loudness and sustain. Do take my word for it,if you have not tried them buy them NOW! Man Made Ivory.

Please let me know how you get on. Mike!