any feedback problems with Avalon L32 and internal mics?

[vasilis]

I have an Avalon L32 and I was thinking of buying a Seymour Duncan SA-6 Mag Mic pickup (soundhole magnetic pickup with internal mic). The dealer saler who stocks those pickups in my country suggested that since my guitar is Jumbo size, it will have feedback problems with the internal mic of the pickup at any mic volume, so, in other words it will be as if the mic is useless. He also recommended to me a passive pickup without mic (DEAN MARKLEY 3100 Tahoe) which sells for a much lower price than the Seymour Duncan (he stocks both of them), so I have strong reason to believe that he tried to be honest with me...

Has anybody in this forum had any experience with the Seymour Duncan SA-6 Mag Mic on a Jumbo acoustic guitar (especially on a L32), so he/she can give me any hints regarding feedback problems with the internal mic ???

Thanks

[JB]

Hi Vasilis,

A dual source system can be a good idea if there's a blend option like the Fishman Ellipse Blend.

Here's a quick recording of the Ellipse Mic and under saddle Transducer.

Mic http://www.avalonguitars.com/mp3/sept/ellipse-mic.mp3

Transducer http://www.avalonguitars.com/mp3/sept/infinity.mp3

Obviously some venues will suit the mic setup where feedback won't be an issue but it's nice to be able to turn it off if needed and just use the under saddle pickup.

These were recorded on a Jumbo rosewood / spruce Avalon custom, slightly bigger than your L32.

[vasilis]

hello JB.
By the way, I have been really enjoying my L32 guitar you sent me, with the custom neck (Greece).
So, you don't think there would be any issue with mic feedback on a L32 if I could set the blend correctly. I wouldn't like to use an under-saddle pickup. I think, for me, the best option would be a soundhole magnetic pickup in combination with a mic and I would like to be able to remove easily the pickup whenever I want and play just acoustic, although this Dean Markley pickup is very small so there might not be an issue of removing it, that was the reason I ended up thinking either the Seymour Duncan SA-6 Mag Mic pickup which has an internal mic with a blend control and a master volume control, or the Dean Markley pickup (passive) and adding a internal mic.

[Rick Jones]

Hi Vasalis,
the body size of the guitar may make internal mic use a bit more feedback prone, but there are ways around it, and to say that it will cause feedback regardless of volume is misleading you somewhat I feel.

I don't know what kind of venues and setups you use a pickup for, but basically a L32 with an internal mic should be manageable, if (and you can try any one or all of these solutions), you don't have a monitor directly in front of the guitar(you can place them behind you as I do), you utilise a feedback buster/soundhole cover (can still be done with a magnetic in the soundhole), you wire the Magmic stereo and only include the mag signal in the monitor and send some mic to front of house....or if you are playing solo with no monitors place the speakers forward of yourself slightly, you "ring" out the PA and given a wide enough EQ on the desk you find the resonant freqency and reduce it in the equalisation.

Also, at moderate volume the magmic is pretty feedback resistant.

The Magmic is a fantastic pickup, with a few drawbacks, but sound wise it's a beauty. The downsides are the size of it, the need for the battery pack inside guitar (the watch battery option requires soldering and falls out easily....voice of experience) and the fact that it blocks alot of the soundhole (good for feedback rejection though).

The Tahoe by Dean Markley? If I can be frank here, I tried out their top of the line trilogy system,had it in my J-185 for 3 months, and whilst the undersaddle was passible, the mic is a woofy nightmare, without any useable high end response, and the mag is woeful, bass weak and midrangey,like it's been overwound for acoustic purposes, where you need the flat response and low output of an underwound pickup, boosted by a close coupled preamp, such as in the magmic.
The DM 3100 and the Magmic are incomparable IMO, with the Magmic being a pro quality, high end option, and the DM being a compromise in comparison.

The magmic mic isn't quite as internal as it seems either, the pickup pattern of the capsule grabs the sound from around the soundhole, you don't get that ""down the well" effect like you do with proper internal mics, so the feedback and boominess is staved off somewhat.

Hope this is some insight for you, good luck with whatever you choose, and congrats on the L32....I am fond of that model myself!

[vasilis]

Rick thanks a lot for the feedback...
Two last questions (addressed also to JB or any other guitar tek who might be willing to chime in..).

1) I play mostly fingerstyle, so my L32 has a wider than standard custom neck width at the nut, which is 46mm (1,8") and at the bridge 60 mm (2,36") so the spacing of the strings are somewhat wider than in the standard acoustic guitars (4-5mm wider at the bridge and also 5mm wider above the soundhole). That means that each string will not be exactly aligned just above each pole of a soundhole magnet pickup.
Would that be a problem for the soundhole magnet to pickup correctly each string vibration, or not ???

2) also the soundhole of L32 has slightly larger diameter due to it's Jumbo size (10,5 cm or 4,13") than a non-Jumbo guitar and I was wondering if the magmic has enough clamp space to be supported on that size-hole (I guess it could be clamped a little bit closer to the guitar neck than on a non-Jumbo guitar, but I just want to make sure it does before I buy it). The specification of the Seymour Duncan Mag-mic in the site is referred for

High-quality 6- and 12-string acoustic guitars with sound holes between 3.85" and 4.10."

. My L32 has a soundhole 0,03" wider than the upper limit specification of the pickup.

[Rick Jones]

Rick thanks a lot for the feedback...
Two last questions (addressed also to JB or any other guitar tek who might be willing to chime in..).

1) I play mostly fingerstyle, so my L32 has a wider than standard custom neck width at the nut, which is 46mm (1,8") and at the bridge 60 mm (2,36") so the spacing of the strings are somewhat wider than in the standard acoustic guitars (4-5mm wider at the bridge and also 5mm wider above the soundhole). That means that each string will not be exactly aligned just above each pole of a soundhole magnet pickup.
Would that be a problem for the soundhole magnet to pickup correctly each string vibration, or not ???

Should be ok, the Magmic has two polepieces per string, so that you can adjust one down if using it on a 12string, as the unwound strings can be overpowering through the magnet, unless you lower the polepieces to balance it out. Twelvestrings have wider spacing again, and it covers those....also, I have used many magnetic pickups without dead on string alignment, and as long as you can balance the polepiece heights to even out the sound you will get good string reading.

2) also the soundhole of L32 has slightly larger diameter due to it's Jumbo size (10,5 cm or 4,13") than a non-Jumbo guitar and I was wondering if the magmic has enough clamp space to be supported on that size-hole (I guess it could be clamped a little bit closer to the guitar neck than on a non-Jumbo guitar, but I just want to make sure it does before I buy it). The specification of the Seymour Duncan Mag-mic in the site is referred for

High-quality 6- and 12-string acoustic guitars with sound holes between 3.85" and 4.10."

. My L32 has a soundhole 0,03" wider than the upper limit specification of the pickup.

I always butt magnetic pickups up as far foward as I can get them in acoustics, for two reasons, one is that the soiund is rounder and less attack-y closer to the neck, you can hear the difference just by playing over that area... the other reason is that the 24th harmonic node is generally under where manufacturers intend a pickup to sit, so you lose that 5th fret harmonic when plugged in because the magnetic field affect the way that node vibrates....that bothers me, but move it millimetres forward and get the harmonic back, and more sympathetic harmonics from strings when you play single notes.
I can get a Magmic in my L32, tried earlier as I have one in a drawer here that I use with the cable out of the soundhole should I ever need to amplify a guitar with no electronics at all fitted.

[vasilis]

Rick, I intend to use the temporary installation of this pickup on my guitar, since I play mostly acoustic (I haven't bought it yet). Is the pickup easily removed from the soundhole (do you need to remove any strings or just slacken some of them?)

Also, is the connection with the battery pack permanent, or does it have a jack that you can plug and unplug from the pickup any time you want and leave the battery pack inside the guitar?

[Rick Jones]

Rick, I intend to use the temporary installation of this pickup on my guitar, since I play mostly acoustic (I haven't bought it yet). Is the pickup easily removed from the soundhole (do you need to remove any strings or just slacken some of them?)

You will have to at least slacken the strings or remove some, this is a big pickup with a deep body. The clamps are good though, and stand up to re-use way better than the sunrise ones, which don't like being tightened on much.

Also, is the connection with the battery pack permanent, or does it have a jack that you can plug and unplug from the pickup any time you want and leave the battery pack inside the guitar?

The battery pack wiring is soldered onto tabs on the base of the pickup. There isn't any strain relief on it, so you do have to handle it with reasonable care.
I have mine installed with the NP9 watch batteries attached to the pickup itself, which is easier, but if you do this wrap a piece of masking tape under the clamps, so the batteries don't drop into the guitar mid song!

[vasilis]

The battery pack wiring is soldered onto tabs on the base of the pickup.

I read the installation instructions and they refer to temporary installation in which you have the battery holder attached on the neck block and the cable running out of the soundhole. I wonder how one could easily remove the pickup from the guitar since it is soldered with the cable of the battery holder which is attached on the neck block. I guess, one might have to detach the battery holder as well, so this option isn't really a temporary installation.

I have mine installed with the NP9 watch batteries attached to the pickup itself

So I guess the use of watch batteries attached on the pickup body is the only real temporary installation option, right?

(you see, I am really looking forward in finding a dual source amplification system for my Avalon which will be non-invasive installation-wise or easily removable)

[Rick Jones]

The battery pack wiring is soldered onto tabs on the base of the pickup.

I read the installation instructions and they refer to temporary installation in which you have the battery holder attached on the neck block and the cable running out of the soundhole. I wonder how one could easily remove the pickup from the guitar since it is soldered with the cable of the battery holder which is attached on the neck block. I guess, one might have to detach the battery holder as well, so this option isn't really a temporary installation.

Yes and no, the battery pack is a small bag,attatched to the neck block with a square of strong velcro, when you pull it out you have only the velcro left in the guitar....it is unweildy and you have to be careful with the wiring if taking it in and out alot.

So I guess the use of watch batteries attached on the pickup body is the only real temporary installation option, right?

No, you can use the battery pack and it is probably just as much hassle as being careful with the np9 fitting.

(you see, I am really looking forward in finding a dual source amplification system for my Avalon which will be non-invasive installation-wise or easily removable)

Hmm, well, what I have is the tiny, lightweight, battery free and active MiSi duo magnetic, which has no effect I can discern at all on unplugged tone, and a K&K mini soundboard transducer fitted inside (three tiny discs and a wire), so there are no batteries in my guitar at all, and simply the misi wire and the K&K wire. I had a countryman mic in there too, but it never got used and I took it out.
I wrote about it here;http://www.rickjonesmusic.co.uk/Guitars-and-Gear.html

It's pretty hard to come to terms with anything affecting the tone of an Avalon unplugged, so I came up with what I have as the best way to try and have the best of both worlds.
My live sound is big, warm and very touch responsive, and I am quite happy with this particular set up as it wasn't even hugely expensive.

[vasilis]

What about the Mi-Si Duo Magnetic?

- do you think it would fit to the wider string spacing of my L32 (as I wrote in my previous post)

- can you remove it easily without having to remove any strings? (just slacken them)

- could I pass both cables (K&K contacts, Mi-Si mag) from the end-pin hole (so I won't have to drill a 2nd hole)

[Rick Jones]

What about the Mi-Si Duo Magnetic?

Tonally stacks up well to the Sunrise, very similar tone, yet lightweight and active, and cheaper to boot. Only magnetic sound though, no mic or top reading function.

- do you think it would fit to the wider string spacing of my L32 (as I wrote in my previous post)

I am fairly sure it would, with the caveat that it doesn't have adjustable pole pieces. But if you hit the MiSi link on my website, and email Mikhail at the company,he knows his product very well and is very helpful and cool.

- can you remove it easily without having to remove any strings? (just slacken them)

Yes, it is tiny, if you were to hang the wire from the soundhole you could easily get it in/out without slackening or removing strings.

- could I pass both cables (K&K contacts, Mi-Si mag) from the end-pin hole (so I won't have to drill a 2nd hole)

No, afraid not, the Duo uses the ring tab of the jack socket to enable the rechargable function, so can't be wired stereo, two sockets doesn't bother me at all though, I can't forsee me ever using one source in a pickup system, and two jacks allows each channel to have it's own eq, effects/reverb or even amp destination, which I can talior to suit the pickup type. Stereo cables and Y leads are more limiting I find.
Drilling the second hole isn't that scary, but I can see why you would be hesitant, I was myself on the Avalon.

To me, it sounds like a Baggs M1a would solve your problems somewhat.
They sound like a transducer/mag combo already as a single source, and the battery is well protected and enclosed so not as vunerable to removal stresses.
The wiring connects to a small jack, which pugs directly into the pickup body, you could permanently install the socket and wire, and easily remove the pickup, simply securing the plug inside with a tiny velcro dot.
They aren't tiny, but not as big as a magmic, and have a very good sound.

[vasilis]

Rick, I really appreciate your tips, thanks a lot for your time...

I guess one solution for me is to keep the Mi-Si magnetic Duo temporarily installed, ie cable passing out of the soundhole (since I mostly play acoustic at home) and install (permanently of course) the K&K contacts.

I will consider the Baggs M1a also in combination with K&K contacts or an internal mic, I guess both cables could be wired into the end-pin jack, and just unplug the mag from the wiring whenever I want, right?

Can that magnet also be removed by just slackening strings like the Mi-Si, or you need to remove some strings?

[Rick Jones]

Rick, I really appreciate your tips, thanks a lot for your time...

Hey no worries, I am interested in pickups, and like to pass on my findings, hope they help you!

I guess one solution for me is to keep the Mi-Si magnetic Duo temporarily installed, ie cable passing out of the soundhole (since I mostly play acoustic at home) and install (permanently of course) the K&K contacts.

That would definately work, plus the K&K is quite good used alone, I tend to use a boss ge7 eq pedal to shape and boost the output, as it has the ideal input impeadance for the K&K.

I will consider the Baggs M1a also in combination with K&K contacts or an internal mic, I guess both cables could be wired into the end-pin jack, and just unplug the mag from the wiring whenever I want, right?

You could do this, I had this set up for a while, but it frustrated me.....
The Baggs M1 was designed to be used alone, it rejects feedback so well, despite being so microphonic, because the coils are wired in opposite phase to each other.
This means, in a dual source setup, one coil will always be out of phase with the other source, regardless of phase switching on either pickup signal.
You get frequency cancellation that defeats the object of a dual source rig in the first place.

One of the nice things about the MiSi and K&K is that they are already pretty much in phase with each other, so you don't need to run any kind of preamp with a pahse switch to get the best results.

Can that magnet also be removed by just slackening strings like the Mi-Si, or you need to remove some strings?

You can get it in and out, but it's fiddly, here is a pic of one in my Yamaha jumbo, bigger bodied than the L32;