L310 Question on Amazaque

[thetree4U]

This question is mostly directed to JB, but if anyone else knows much about this, it would be helpful.

The L310 is a spruce/Amazaque. What does Amazaque sound like (comparatively speaking) within the Avalon line. I would like to understand it from an objective point of view (e.g. in any guitar), but I am most interested in how it sounds in an L310? (compared to an Rosewood model and a mahogany model... maple..., etc.)

How it will sound aged (opened up)? Does it open up? What's a reasonable time to expect it to open up?

Is it softer or harder (from a wear pt of view)?

Are there any issues surrounding it (I heard it smells when it is initially worked with (does the guitar have an awkward smell))? Does it amplify any different than other woods?

Is it the same as ovangkol? If so, why is Taylor's ovangkol line (400 series) priced so reasonably and Avalon's more expensive?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I am seriously interested in this.

[JB]

Amazaque is very hard, this is very noticable when hand-bending and it smells terrible when dipped in hot water and placed on the bending iron ... a bit like babies nappies ... not kidding ! But thankfully the smell completely disappears once bending has finished and doesn't return ... well unless you dip your guitar into water at 85deg and let it sit on a 160deg iron

Yes Amazaque and Ovankol are basically the same wood.

To me it sounds like a cross between Rosewood and Mahogany, it has a depth of sound but maintains bright trebles and it seems to age really well as sometimes we have Japanese Lowdens come in for a service (made around 1985'ish) and they sound excellent, well matured and full, but remember this is more a result of the soundboard opening up, not the back and sides.

A Sitka Spruce soundboard can take anywhere from 6 - 24 months to open up regardless of back and side material.

Regardless of woods I don't think you can compare a hand-made Avalon Legacy with a Taylor, totally different animals.
But for clarity ... we only put Amazaque on Premier series guitars, they always cost a bit more.


JB

[chris c]

I think the Taylor 400 series has a simpler finish of the back and sides, which, in addition to different building methods, accounts for the lower price. They are matte, which require much less man-hours to apply (well in their case I should probably say "machine-hours"). The satin finish of an Avalon is much more time-consuming. JB told me how many coats were applied and sanded, but I forgot the exact number (16 ?, something like that...). The matte finish on the lower priced Taylors, Larrivées, etc. are just a kind of oil I think.

[thetree4U]

Thanks JB. That is helpful. I may lean in the L310 direction as a result.

BTW, How many coats does an Avalon Legacy have?

[JB]

It works out at 11 or 12 very thin coats, we mix it ourselves to keep it flexible.

[thetree4U]

I have a question (sort of) related to the finish coats...

About 18 years ago I borrowed a friends Alvarez Yairi (Cedar top/Rosewood s/b) to lead worship. Being a harder flatpicker, after I finished, I noticed that one of my strums had put a very noticeable scratch (about 3 inches) in the top. After apologizing profusely, and in my great humiliation, I have been scared to death of cedar.

Here's my question: With the finishes you put on a cedar top Legacy (all 11-12 thin coats), how much protection does that provide from a guy like me? (the pickup guard helps, but my sphere of damage can exceed its scope).

Does spruce (being harder and denser) hold up better for aggressive flatpickers/strummers? (even with the same finish)?

Does a gloss finish on the top tend to bounce off glancing blows better than the flat finish?

I forumed with Son of Thunder on this... and haven't even considered a cedar top (whether I like it or not) because of the softness... and my abject terror.

[JB]

Our lacquer is thin and easier damaged than a lot of other finishes but it also allows the soundboard to move with less restriction, give a fuller sound, that's the trade off.

The lacquer can be scratched and dented regardless of whether it's a cedar or spruce top but the light colour of the spruce means you don't see the damage as easily.

Yes the cedar is damaged easier if you are a heavy handed player but if it's my guitar then I don't mind ... my guitar is meant to be played, so I accept it's going to get marks from my playing ... doesn't cause me a second thought to be honest.

[thetree4U]

Thanks, JB. That makes good sense.

This is my first venture into high end (over $3K) guitars, and I am just a little anxious about those first scratches and dings. All of my other instruments are working instruments and I accept imperfections as part of life. I guess I will need to shift my mindset a little on this.

On the whole, I still like the sparkle of the spruce, but because of the lack of initial bass response on my L32C, was thinking about cedar.

[thetree4U]

JB, (and anyone else who wants to chime in)...

My new L32C was badly damaged in transit back to the dealer (where I was getting it exchanged for a new one... crack...), so I will get claim money back on the insurance and have to get a new guitar. I am trying to decide between the L32C and the L310. I am not married to the cutaway.

I liked the L32C but as I said earlier, it was brighter than I expected and did not have the kind of bass response I expected. You said it would open up in time.

In weighing the differences between the L32C and the L310, what would be the notable differences to you that might effect my purchase decision? I am playing both by myself (writing and just for enjoyment) and with a full band worship team with my church (where I lead the team). I play a combo of flatpicking, fingerstyle (i.e. James Taylor, etc.) and strumming.

I really like the L310 cosmetically, but that is a minor detail in my long-term investment. Plus, whatever guitar I get will be a "working" instrument in that I will only baby it so much. It will take some wear just by being around me.

It breaks my heart to even be at this purchase juncture again, but it is the reality of my life. Advice?

[JB]

A fully rounded rich bass takes time with spruce, there's no short cuts with top quality sitka spruce soundboards and this will apply to both the rosewood and amazaque when combined with spruce.

I personally think both guitars will deliver in time and whichever one you choose you'll be happy with it as it matures.

[Son of Thunder]

Tree,

You have a PM.

[chris c]

You've probably noticed it already, but there are sound clips of an amazaque model on the Avalon website
http://www.avalonguitars.co.uk/shop/index.cfm?do=listen

[thetree4U]

You know, ChrisC, I actually never listened to the Amazaque guitar clips. Only the jumbos available. Actually the GA body A series with Amazaque sounded fantastic. Great not separation, even on the fast flatpicking. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.

What did you think of the sound? Comparatively.

[chris c]

I just listened to it through the cheap speakers on my computer, which is not the best way to have a really good idea of the sound.
But I liked the A310c very much, it is warmer than the mahogany A12, but as you say, still very detailed. I guess the L-version will have a bit more bass and volume.

I think the difference with the rosewood L32 is quite apparent in the clips. The L32 sounds darker and to me, less focused in the bass (but maybe it's just my cheap speakers).
It's probably a good idea to burn the clips on CD and listen to them through a good hi-fi system, as they recommend on the website.

As to the guitars "opening up", it is really like JB says. When I got my brand new Avalon Jacques Stotzem about 16 months ago, it was much brighter than I expected and than I remembered from Jacques' guitar, even a bit harsh in the midrange sometimes. But I've played it almost every day for 1-2 hours or more since, and now I consider it as a warm, full sounding guitar, with excellent focus and balance, no matter how hard or softly I play it.