12 string for fingerpicking

[Nige]

Hi, I would appreciate some feedback on this one! I love 12 string guitars and particularly when they are fingerpicked. Having tried many different models it seems to me that there is huge diversity in playability and tone although its seems to me that not many fingerpick all that well. I suspect this might be down to string spacing and action height? Many of the off the shelf guitars appear to use spruce tops with maple back and sides giving a very bright sound,whilst this undoubtedly produces that high sparkle and slight twanginess i would prefer something a little more mellow and rounded but retaining that wonderful fullness and seperation that is so much a hallmark of the Avalon sound(I already own an L335c 6 string Cedar/Claro Walnut Premier and love the sound of this guitar) I suppose I am asking, what would a 12 string made of the same tonewoods be likely to sound like. would it retain its clarity or would it be subject to that wooly/dullnes that some 12 string guitars seem to have?
I favour the jumbo size (BIG sound) with cutaway! Hey we are talking twelve string here!
Well thats my dream machine?
All comments welcome folks.

[chris c]

I've just bought an A32 12 string from Avalon on ebay . My second Avalon and I will also use it mainly for fingerpicking. However I don't have it yet, because I asked them to fit a pickup which they don't have in stock anymore but should arrive soon... very very soon I pray
I will certainly post a little review when I have it !

[Nige]

Hi chris, I would value your impressions. If i remember correctly you also have a Jacque Stotzem? At the moment the 12 string I'm playing is a Takemine EG523SC really a budget guitar coming in at about £375 but you know when i bought it I had £1000 to spend but couldn't find anything that picked or sounded any better! I find myself in the rather fortunate position now to be able to go for my ideal 12 string so I'm trying to get together as much infomation and impressions as possible. One guitar I did quite like was a Tayor 955, its playability was superb but the sound was a little formulaic but to be fair I was in a rather noisy room!
Look forward to your review Chris.

[Jimbo]

12 string guitars sound on average higher than a 6 string made of the same woods because the "double" string is an octave higher for the bottom 4 strings.

It certainly is prudent to think about more mellow tonewoods for a 12 string because spruce could be a bit thin. It's also worth trying bigger body sizes to boost the bass a bit aswell. I used to have a 12 string that was OM ish sized and very thin. It sounded awful naturally but it did have a nice pickup in it...

Another thing to worry about with 12 strings is tuning. You'll notice a drop in tone quality if a 12 string is out of tune, more so than you would with a 6 string. (I hate tuning and am crap at it! I have a decent tuner though )

I would try a cedar topped 12 string jumbo as I suspect it would sound a little bit 'sparklier' than a 6 string cedar. You might want to check out a redwood top, if you can find one (my current dream guitar is an Avalon L with a redwood top and rosewood back and sides )

[Dattan]

Hi Chris!
Congrats to your new Avalon! I am also waiting for my second one, so I know the feeling... Hm, I wonder how many I'll end up with, eventually... May I ask what pickup you decided to get?

Hi Nige, as well!
Concerning 12-strings, I don't think I have seen that many cedar tops around. To my understanding, spruce, being stronger than cedar, is better suited structurally for the greater tension that the 12 strings will add. But JB will know more about that, I am sure. However, if there are anyone I would trust to build a cedar/walnut 12-string that hold it's own, it would be the Avalon team...

[Dattan]

Hi again...
Sorry for changing the subject temporarily. I just would like to add to Jimbo that there was a beautiful Redwood topped Jumbo for sale on Avalon's eBay shop some months ago. At a vere reasonable price too, as I recall. Let's hope that there is another one like that coming up again soon...

[Nige]

Hi Dattan, Thanks for your comments. I have to admit the strength issue of cedar compared to spruce is something I hadn't thought of. I play exclusively in open G on 12 string which I'm sure you know is a full tone drop of bottom E, A and top E strings respectively so that is a drop in overall string tension. I do know of players who do tune their 12 strings to open G, plus a full tone dropped across all 12 strings to reduce stress on sondboards and also for tonal/playability reasons. That said there may also be negative issues relating to intonation and the guitars ability to play in tune when playing at considerably reduced tensions. JBs input on these issues would certainly be valued and appreciated.

[chris c]

Nige,
Yes I have a Jacques Stotzem model, and it keeps getting better... so Avalon was the way to go for the next one Like you I also have a cheap 12-string, but I mean really cheap, a small-body Eko from the 60s I think, it sounds like rusty nails rattling in a tin box, but it's surprisingly playable. It will go when the Avalon arrives !

Hi Jimbo,
I agree that 12-strings can sound too trebly because of the octave strings. I recently played a Taylor 355 which was like that, though it is a jumbo. I haven't had a chance to play a 12-string Avalon and was a bit worried about this issue as it is a mid-size auditorium body, so I asked Jim about it - apparently I needn'have worried. And it was a good price too

Dattan,
The pickup will be the usual Fishman matrix. I prefer to wait a little longer and know it is installed properly. I'm not sure guitar techs are familiar with the split saddle design around here.

[JB]

Hi Nige

We've made cedar topped 12 strings in the past ... you just have to make sure it's good quality, nice and stiff with tight grain but i personally I think our L32, A32, S32 rosewood / spruce 12 strings are just awesome, the rosewood helps boost the bass response which is noticably lacking on other brands 12 strings.

Spruce would always be first choice for 12 strings as it's naturally alot stronger for all that estra string tension.

Our 12 strings have a 48mm neck and are very comfortable to play

[Jimbo]

Hi again...
Sorry for changing the subject temporarily. I just would like to add to Jimbo that there was a beautiful Redwood topped Jumbo for sale on Avalon's eBay shop some months ago. At a vere reasonable price too, as I recall. Let's hope that there is another one like that coming up again soon...

Ack! Don't tell me if you see one! The bank manager is breathing down my neck as it is!

[Nige]

Jim, Many thanks for that! The L32/rosewood combination sounds like it might fit the bill. What would that model be priced at Jim? Also do you make this model as a premier with a cutaway and approx what would that come in pricewise/availability?

Jimbo, I know what you mean when you mentioned 12 strings being sensitive to tuning, they can sound awfull if they are just a tad out and trying to tune them whilst your performing is a nightmare! Believe me ,I've been caught out a few time and its not fun! These days I slide off somewhere quiet say ten minutes before my "spot" and make sure everything is just right but what a glorious sound they have when it all goes according to plan!

[chris c]

A 12-string always seems a little out of tune I think... I see it as part of its charm, though it can be exasperating.

Jim, I was wondering if 12 string Avalons are built to be tuned to standard pitch, possibly only with light gauge strings (010 on top) ? I always tune mine down, but it would probably help intonation if it is tuned to standard.

[JB]

Designed for standard tuning

JB

[Dattan]

You 12-stringers out there, I have to ask: Do you play fingerstyle with fingerpicks or bare flesh/nails? Personally I prefer fingerstyle before a pick on a 6-string any day in the the week, but when it comes to 12-strings I actually find it a little tricky to execute a clean stroke without some sort of pick. Not that I have tried that hard, but none the less...

[Nige]

Hi Dattan, When playing 12 string fingerstyle I use flesh and nails and treat it in exactly the same way as 6 string. I do think it helps a lot if the paired string are fairly close together, it doesn't feel like you are trying to play a huge bank of strings. When the pairs are close this contributes to a 6 string feel and makes a clean finger stroke on both paired strings easier to achieve. For me also keeping my nails fairly long helps my nail glide over both strings so only a small amount of flesh contacts the strings (I use acrylic nail coating to strengthen and thicken my nails, its by far the best nail strength system i've tried )I'd say, keep at it and try and imagine your playing a 6 string, it will come and it will be worth it. Try some open tunings too, harmonics on a 12 in open tunings sound like chords from haeven.

Nige.