A25C or L25C? Advice needed, please

[boombox]

Hi all, first post here, but a fairly long-time lurker.

Bit of background first, before I start off with the inevitable first plea for help, as all newbies seem to do! After 25+ years of electric playing, I've made the switch to an acoustic as my weapon of choice. Earlier this year I very, very nearly bought a Lowden F25C (Shh!), but ended up getting swayed by a 6 year old used Collings OM, which is wonderful in standard and dropped D tuning. However, the more I play it, it just seems to lack something in the bottom end in DADGAD and CGCGCD, which, as I delve deeper into fingerstyle, are becoming my two favourite tunings. I don't regret the Collings, but I am thinking as I need another axe anyway to minimise retuning, I need to look at something with a different range/sound. Looking about, listening to different recordings and watching numerous youtube videos, my choices seem to be heading towards, in order of preference, Avalon, and then Stonebridge or Lowden. Finding an Avalon to try is very difficult, so I guess I am going to have to go on on trust and testimonials, especially if buying used. I was dead on the money with Collings forumites' recommendations and you guys here seem just as rabid about your Avalons, so who better to ask?

So, finally:

Q1: Where does a neck profile on an Avalon lie - nearer Martin low profile or Gibson? I seem to remember reading something somewhere that they were more comfortable than Lowdens. I have tried a few Lowdens and they were indeed quite substantial compared to a Martin (though not as huge as the telegraph pole I had on a 70s Fylde I acquired and sold), but, with work, manageable. My Collings seems to lie somewhere in the middle of Martin & Gibson. People say you can adjust to a wider/thicker/flatter/rounder etc neck, but I have very short fingers, which is why the Fylde had to go. On a side note, I often think it would be a good idea if manufacturers could produce a pdf (so it wouldn't resize when printing) giving a template of the neck profile at, say, the nut, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 12th frets, so you could print them on stiff card, cut them out and try them against guitars you already own to get an idea of the neck shape.

Q2: From time to time, A25C and L25Cs seem to come up for sale at very good (silly?!!) prices for such a quality instrument. Is there much of a difference between the two models other than volume? I am guessing playability would be about the same, though the L25C will obviously be a bit bigger on your lap and possibly project more. While I want a guitar I can also strum moderately, the main purpose of the guitar will be fingerstyle (everything from newer percussive stuff like Andy McKee [favourite current acoustic guitarist] or Antoine Dufour to more traditional/Celtic like Richard Thompson and Huw Williams [favourite British fingerstyle artist]).

OK, so I've probably used up my post allowance for the rest of the year, but like I say, I value your opinions. Probably won't be able to go hunting in earnest till after the holidays, but at least if I can get some pointers, I can go in a bit more knowledgeable.

Thanks in advance.

[JB]

Hi Boombox and welcome to the forums

Some good questions there for an opening post ...

We hand carve our necks to a slimmer / lower profile than we used to on the Lowden's, we wanted the neck to play faster without going too slim so in general we'd be closer to a Gibson than a Martin ... a very comfortable soft low 'D'ish if that makes sense!

Your thoughts on the A25C and L25C are pretty accurate, the guitars have the same characteristics but the L25C has a bit more volume and boom being the larger body size.

Our guitars thrive on alternate dropped tunings, you'll have no worries there

[boombox]

Thanks for getting back so fast, JB. So good that you can get an informed answer straight from the horse's mouth too, so to speak. Having a slightly slimmer neck is quite an issue for me and indeed the reason I was drawn more to the Collings when I A/Bed it with the Lowden. With small hands and short fingers - my first finger is only 2 & 3/4" long - too much wood under my hand makes stretches more difficult and on overly chunky necks, anything barred above the 5th can be quite difficult to fret cleanly. I've worked to develop a quasi-classical thumb position behind the neck, but, especially after years of electric playing, every little bit helps.

Now, I wonder if there is anyone out there who owns/has owned both these models, who could expound on their particular virtues in comparison with one another...

[riverdog]

welcome boombox,
i can tell you from recent experience in purchasing an avalon without first playing it just from the testimonials of the good folk, ( like greypicker, jb and others ), on this forum that i researched for months before buying. so this past july i found a new s201 irish gold series in eir/cedar and it has become my go to guitar for f/s and thats good because it is in the company of a lowden lse2 which is an f shape in eir/sitka only shallower and a custom made goodall concert jumbo cedar/hog. so in comparing the avalon neck and lowden, i prefer the avalon 44mm, but mostly the radius seems akin to a gibson j-45 which plays great. i don't like flat fretboards like a larivee,(nice guitars tho), because my little hands don't do well on them. i have left hand sports injuries, so like greypicker, i need as much help as i can get. i believe you would absolutely dig the avalon; PULL THE TRIGGER, you won't regret it. as for my goodall it has a slim feel but the f/s award goes to avalon in my book esp. the eir/cedar combo. i don't play percussive, but more like JT, Nick Webb, style, but i would love another "s" model in eir/alpine spruce with a rosewood fretboard and bridge! (hint to jb) so enjoy the journey of your axe search, i wish you well.
riverdog

[boombox]

Thanks for the words of wisdom, guys. I have been seriously researching acoustics for about 12 months now and after owning a couple of guitars better than my old 80s Fender Gemini II I think I have begun to develop a feel for what suits me. Like I said, I acquired a Fylde for next to nothing, but, while it sounded gorgeous, hardly played it. I bought an almost mint Martin 16 series which I thought was very nice for strumming and picking, but not really, as I played it more after buying it, for fingerstyle. Someone suggested, why didn't I trade up that and the Fylde. Before doing so, I tried higher end Martins, Taylors, Takamines Patrick Eggles etc, but it was the Lowdens which seemed to be calling out. Didn't buy the F25 as I hadn't yet sold the other two, but then when I was ready to buy , I tried the Collings and it was a no brainer. (As a general do-it-all guitar, I think you'd be hard pressed to beat an OM, but not one by Martin!) At this point, I realised, you get what you pay for and to get those little pull offs and runs, you need a well-voiced instrument. The Avalons certainly seem to fit that description from what I've seen and read.

riverdog, I looked at one of those Golds on ebay recently - went for only £640, but I am not yet in a position to buy - seemed a bit of a bargain to me. If another came up, I'd be tempted, though Legacys go for sometimes less than a grand. I do think an Avalon is likely to be my next (final?) acoustic. We'll just have to see.

[Rick Jones]

I narrowly missed a Legacy D32, that's the Avalon "Dread" shape, on evilbay, that went for under a grand, with some buckle rash on the back (cosmetics don't worry me), so they are out there.
To be honest, you're as well watching the ex-demo models that go on the site, bit more than a grand, but I really don't believe there is anywhere else you can get that quality of guitar for that price or anywhere near.

[boombox]

Just a bit of an update on my Avalon search. I was very sorely tempted by the ex-demo D300A on sale in the online shop (thanks, Jim for the patience off-board with my queries), but the Collings would have to go and of late I seem to be starting to "bond" a bit more with it when used for DADGAD etc.

I have to confess to a bit of trepidation with buying anything expensive unplayed, which was confirmed today when I tried a Lowden O32C and some Larrivees. The Lowden was very nice indeed, and proved that a large bodied guitar can be used for fingerstyle (had been convinved that I would need to look at GA/concert sized guitars), but I'm still not sure on the necks. Yet I would say that it was beatifully voiced and the notes just tripped off it. As for the Larrivees, very nice for the money and waaay better than any sub-£2k Martin or Taylor I've played, but you get what you pay for: on returning home, I played my Collings this evening and the Larrivees didn't even come close.

So I guess I'll be looking out for a used bargain L25(C) or L32(C) to test the waters with Avalons first, before potentially going for a £2.5K+ model.

[boombox]

Perhaps Guy Clark has summed up the mystery best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHxOego2Sso&feature=related

What a song - what a way to end the year, discovering another artist of whom I wasn't aware. He reminds me very much of Eric Andersen, which is no bad thing in my book. (And thank-you, John for giving me a great signature!)

As for my guitar search, any misgivings I may still have about the Collings aside, I suppose my real problem is finding an instrument of the same quality if I were to change it. I agree, the more you play acoustic (and for me, I've 25 years of electric bad habits and sloppiness to unlearn!), the better acquainted you become with your guitar and you adapt to it. I guess I've been spoiled with all the proper acoustics I've owned: they've each sounded great, but then, in terms of playability and that special personal 'x' factor, each has been better than the previous one. From a basic Fender Gemini, to a mid-range Martin and a Fylde needing a neck set, I jumped up many steps to my Collings. My wife said tonight maybe I should have bought the Lowden F25C, but I am pretty certain I am more likely to go Avalon - same build quality, but faster, slimmer necks (I've read they are Lowdens on speed!)

[Walesy]

Go for an Avalon, you won't regret it, I'm sure of it

Mine has warmed and matured so much in the couple of years i've owned it (I bought it new) that it now feels like part of the family and the only way it'll part company with me is if my son wants it when he reaches 18 - he's only 2 at the moment so I have a while before I have to worry about that!

[boombox]

[quote="Walesy"]Go for an Avalon, you won't regret it, I'm sure of it /quote]

Well, I was about to go for the ex-demo L that was up ever so briefly yetsterday. However, thought it best to check with "she who must be obeyed" (or at least consulted!) It was gone within an hour or so.

I console myself with the thought that I'd really like a cutaway version, but a near mint L32 with factory fitted electronics for £1500? Somebody got an amazing bargain.

I'll just have to keep an eye on the site and take the plunge - that's two I've very nearly pulled the trigger on, only for them to go.

[Rick Jones]

E-mail Jim and ask him if/what he has coming up, you may get the chance to snag something before it gets listed.
Can't go wrong really as it's coming straight from the hands of the people who made it, and that's a great feeling!

[boombox]

Well, I finally did it and joined the Avalon owner's club! Managed to get the L32C in the ex-demo section on Tuesday. Arrived intact today at work, but I left it to acclimatise a bit after being on the road last night in sub-zero temps.

First impression on opening the case was "Wow!" It is indeed a beauty as JB mentioned in his post in the sales section. And the smell!! Gave it the once over and am mightily impressed: beautiful workmanship throughout. Could only find one very minor flaw where the end of the fretboard meets the nut and the wood has chipped slightly. However, to sand it out would have probably meant altering the nut. A pity, but this is a handmade instrument and nothing can (or indeed should) be laser perfect and it's not going to spoil it's playability. After all, isn't that why we buy them? So a conservative 9.8/10 for workmanship.

Action seems very good and it plays easily. It does look a fraction high at the saddle - correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I read somewhere that shims are inserted to set the action as if there were a UST there? In which case job done, but to be honest, I think I'll manage as it is for the moment.

Family were in bed, so I've only been able to do some very light strumming and fingerstyle stuff, especially as I think this baby is going to be loud! Tuning up from slack to CGDGAD, Andy McKee's 'All Laid Back & Stuff" was a breeze and the harmonics were so easy to get. Another tweak to CGCGCD for some Celtic fingerstyle a la Huw Williams and again no problems, even playing pieces I normally play capoed at the IVth. I was a bit nervous about the neck after my 1 11/16 Collings, but didn't need to be. Tomorrow, I'll put her up to DADGAD and standard and see what she can really do and I'll update this over the weekend. However, based on what I've done so far: 10/10 for sound and playability.

So, do I regret having bought a guitar site unseen? No. Do I regret not having done so sooner? A resounding yes! Many thanks to everyone here for helping me decide to take the plunge, especially JB and also Rick, who convinced me as to the L32's versatility. And greypicker, I may well have found that guitar with my name on the case!

[JB]

Glad you like it boombox and Rick is right, the L32 is extremely versatile, it handles just about anything you can throw at it with ease.

New guitars take about 6 months to settle into their new environment and a spruce top takes about 12 - 18 months to fully open up and deliver all the goods ... you've started a fantastic musical journey